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Part 3: Dr. Cook chats with Jackee Stang from Delic Radio

March 26, 2020
Listen Time: 
1h 13min
BioReset Medical podcast background

In part 3 of Dr Cook and Jackee Stang's (Delic Radio) fireside chat, they address the impact the Corona Virus pandemic is having (and will continue to have) on mental health. They equate the virus to its own depressive journey with a multitude of ups and downs and project how important it's going to be  to gather multiple opinions on the subject, mixed with scientific data, to find new ways to treat patients. Otherwise it just becomes another data point, with no context. Its that explorative and open approach to medicine that is going to speed up science and mental health treatment as a result of this. Dr. Cook goes on muse that 100's of trials will be rushed through as a matter of pandemic urgency, meaning quasi legal treatments for depression like 'ketamine' become more mainstream. He goes on to say that there are early mentions of how it's now legal to treat patients with ketamine via telemedicine. It's possible to ship ketamine, have the patient take an oral dissolve and complete their ketamine treatment journey all via Zoom. As the fireside chat evolves, Dr. Cook and Jackee go on to discuss other mental health treatments that are not only therapeutic but help reset a patients physical pain and anxiety. "Even if these progressive treatments give me just a day, a week, maybe 2 weeks of hope then it’s worth it for me." - Jackee Stang

 You are listening to the Bio Reset Medical podcast with Dr. Matthew Cook.

The following is a discussion with Jackie Stan from the Delic Radio podcast. So you talked to, you said one person, but I know you've been taught, you've been posting a bunch of podcasts. Oh. So, um, who else? Oh, guess what? We're gonna, I'm talking to Jessie today. Remember my friend Jessie, she's kind of like the woman that does ketamine journeys.

Yes. She's like real spiritual. Yes. So we're, she's, she's gonna lead people on a meditation. Nice. So I'm doing that afterwards and. It's, you know, I, everybody, people are like, and then I go, and it was funny because I was, I was talking to some of the marketing people and I was like, and they were like, oh, she's your, she's the most popular one.

I go, we've never done her. I go, oh, you mean Jackie? And they go, yeah, she's the most popular one. So, but yes, it's great. And, and what I am loving is because this is sort of almost like my life. It's like kinda like, there's a little part of it that's kind of science and academicy, and then a little part of it's this interventional and kind of doing stuff.

And then a big part of it that's kind of like this, that's just kind of normal, I would say. And then like I'm, I'm looking forward to kind of bringing that voice in because then it's sort of like a couple days ago, somebody sent me a text and they said, on a scale from one to 10, how close are you to.

Curing the world. And I said, I woke up at a three, but I'm at eight now. But then it's kind of like, it just goes all over the map. And so sometimes it's a 10 and sometimes it's a one, but, and it's gonna keep going like that. But it's neat to have kind of different voices in the room because it's almost what, what we're like a family basically.

Yeah. And so then hearing those voices is really interesting to me. It's, it's a necessity to have a variety of voices in the room, in my opinion. Um, cuz you're not getting the full picture. I mean, I'm, I'm not a scientist or anything. It seems to be that if you have a hypothesis or you're trying to get somewhere, you want to evaluate data from as many different places as possible.

And I feel very strongly about that in the psychedelic community. I had this very talk like three times today on other podcasts and. And because right now the filter is very much medical therapeutic, sometimes science, sometimes anthropology. Um, but there, the, the data that's been acquired from the recreational psychedelic community over the last 40 years is, is wildly valuable.

And if we can find a way to, I don't know, collect it while keeping people safe and, and aggregate it with the more scientific DA data that's being collected with these studies now, then we're just gonna get to where we wanna go faster and we're gonna have a better picture. Uh, it's, you know, and it's again, relevant to Covid because you keep hearing all these numbers.

Numbers, numbers, numbers, and people are living and dying. Ugh. That was a terrible, terrible, terrible, um, reference. Said living and dying by these numbers. Sorry guys. Um, okay. That is true, Tina. People are living and dying by these numbers, but they're not accurate because we can't, because we didn't start testing soon enough.

Right. And we can't test full enough. And so it's, they're really just a data point, an important data point, but it's not the full picture. Y you know what, so this is a good one. So then I, you know who another person I had a good call with. Who's that? Matt, staying? Yeah, because that's pretty good. So the, I, so there are, they're relaxing some of the laws around telemedicine.

And so then, uh, there's gonna be, it sounds like used could be legal for me to ship ketamine to, uh, and do a whole medical conversation to patient. And then that patient is gonna be able to have a guided ketamine journey with a oral dissolving tablet on Zoom. And the, you know, it's interesting, we talked to, we talked to, I've, I've heard, uh, five or six cases of people who were, you know, had some problem and it had been under wraps for a long time, and all of a sudden, you know, addiction and this and that.

All of a sudden the wheels come off the bus because they're all this, everybody's stress level is so high. And so whether it be, there's a lot of substances out there that are sort of quasi-legal that I think can be very therapeutic in terms of resetting anxiety and resetting depression and resetting pain.

And a lot of times if that just buys you a couple weeks of hope, that might be worth it because just getting your, it's kinda like even like you and me, maybe we were a two yesterday, but we're at eight today and you know, tomorrow we might dip down to a lower number and go back. And so it's like a, and so in a way, this covid thing is a journey with ups and downs.

But, um, I'm hopeful. And, you know, I think you said something really good, Jackie, because this is the greatest scientific experiment that the world has ever done. And it's gonna speed up the, the time that it takes to do science because there, there are, Hundreds, thousands of clinical trials that are all going on right now, and they're all sped up and we're gonna get an answer in a month, and then that, that's gonna lead to more information that's gonna lead to better answers.

And so we need to then do that in, I, I think the, the field of mental health is a, a field that has so much opportunity for research and so much opportunity. Like, like as you and I know, just imagine if we could get a trial where we looked at N A D and Ketamine, because I would say anecdotally, from my experience, taking care of patients, when you do N A D and Ketamine, it works like a hundred times better than if you just did Ketamine by itself.

Why do you think that is? Because, so, um, in, in the brain there are a whole bunch of different areas that do something. And so they all have a name, like there's a motor cortex, there's an association, motor cortex, there's the prefrontal cortex. And so there's all of these different locations that do something, and they're called broadman areas.

They're areas within the brain. And so one, one idea is, is that sometimes the electrical activity in a certain area of the brain will, will become slightly dysfunctional. And so you can measure that by taking an electrical picture of the brain called A Q E E G. It's like an electrical map, uh, that's similar to an EKG.

Now, um, my, my clinical experiences is that when we give N a d, it seems to metabolically turn areas on. And what I think happens is, is that the, the N A D goes to all of those different broadband areas and optimizes how the mitochondria are functioning in all of those areas. And so then once you start to evenly turn on every physiological area in the brain, then the brain is just less stressed.

And so then it's, once the brain is in a better physiological state, then ketamine is gonna have a better effect because the brain is more optimized than it was without the n a D. And then I notice people will have, I don't know if you notice this, but I notice that after the, uh, after the, the session, often people will have less side effects and feel less jangly if they did n a D first.

Yeah, I've, I've never done a, uh, ketamine clinically without n a d. And so I will say though, that it's, there's almost zero, um, To recuperate from except from the amazing, uh, psychological benefits that you got, you know, that lasts for me, that lasts about seven days. The positive benefits, I think roundabout, but, um, yeah, it's barely, there's barely anything to contend with from a, uh, from a standpoint of like feeling better or hangover effect.

So then, so then here's like, remind me to go back into Na d but, so then this is a good one cuz this is kind of like this, the, this conversation that I love that I'm having with you. It's interesting if you can do we do something that has a seven day effect. So all of a sudden it's kinda like you made, I I heard you say one time the coast is clear.

It's kind of like the coast is clear for seven days. Right? Right, exactly. So then now that is a really good amount of time. And so then we've been working on our ketamine workbook and I'm gonna have you help me because then that it's, and, and that's why I think you've done so great in the last year is because you've done a lot of introspection in those days and it all of a sudden, I, I like to say if you can just have one good day and turn that into two or three and turn that into four or five or six or seven, and then you can, you can do that, that starts to reset electrical pathways and we, and, and it's almost like we get re reset to the factory default setting, or it's like we got upgraded to a, just a better, more functional operating system.

Yeah. And once that works, then it just kind of starts to, that's, that's you now you got a new operating system. Well, and that's what you want. That's what I want. I'm happy to just be at like ground zero and as a depressed person or whatever my diagnoses was or is. Uh, I'm not sure. I don't know that I buy into most of the, the mental ones.

Um, but I was certainly fucked up and, and feeling suicidal in my thirties, which was, which was new because while I, I spent a lot of my twenties upset and hysterical and up and down, uh, mood swings and almost like manic behavior. Um, I, I never thought about suicide. So to, to even, to even have an hour where you.

Are no longer contending with what we've talked about before, like the little doubt monster, just even have an hour to not contend with that is so effective at long-term treatment that at least for me, um, that I'll do, I'll do anything, um, to keep, to stretch that hour out, to stretch it out to a day, to stretch it out, to seven days, to keep doing the work and the discipline, um, to, to break those neuro pathways for myself so that I can be at like a homeostasis.

I could be my optimal self at whatever age or however old my cells are, um, in any given moment. Because that feels amazing when you're, when you've clicked in and you're just ki you're just like, you're human. You're not being agitated by anything that's broken or hanging off or you know, that like bag that gets caught in your wheel when you're driving sometimes and it's just like flapping.

If you don't, you don't have any of that shit going on. It's like, it's great. Could like fly. Let me ask a question. How much, if you do n a d by itself, do you, does it help with that, that plastic bag that's wrapped around your tire when you're walking around in your life? So

ketamine is, so far, I'm just like in the middle of my journey here, but ketamine so far, clinical prescribed ketamine, um, is the most effective. But n a d on its own is like, is up there. And I think that might have something to do though, with the fact that I like tripping. And you don't trip necessarily on n a d I mean, there's a sensation of flushing, which is kind of fun, but, um, you're not actually like going anywhere.

So that might be it. But I mean, n a D is like, you know, I'm a huge fan. I wish that, like, psychedelics aside, if we could get any people, more people just with on N A D, just get 'em however, you know, 1500 milligrams over three days or whatever, and start there. I think it would make a huge difference. It did for me.

So, so this is, I, this is maybe like one of my favorite things of all time. I, although I got a comment today, this is my favorite comment of all time, but, um, the y you know, I, I, this psychiatrist, um, who does a lot of N A D. He, I, I was talking to him and I was like, well, blah, blah, blah. I go, what psychiatric conditions does it help?

And then what does it not help? And then he, and he'd been doing it for 20 years. Ah-huh. And, and he goes, there's no psychiatric condition that n a d doesn't help. And interestingly, did I tell you about the time I had, this kid came into my office in a fugue state, so he like, basically couldn't talk and was in, had had, had a trip go horribly wrong.

Mm-hmm. And it was, you can go into something where you almost like get disassociated. Mm-hmm. And so then the, the brother brought him in and the dad and I was like, gonna take him to the hospital and do a 50, like admit him, where they would've given him tons of drugs. Yeah. And so then the family begged me to give him n a d cuz they were like, you've already fixed everybody.

So probably if you do N A d, he'll, he's gonna get. Better. And I was like, it was interesting cuz I really had a lot of resistance to the idea because I had, I just was afraid something would go bad, you know what I mean? And he came in a bad seat and so I just said, fine, I'll do it. You know, I got them to consent to it and so I gave him not even a hundred milligrams, we were just drip.

I made a bag and I was dripping it pretty slow. And this has to do with Jackie, the idea of all of these electrical parts of the brain. So imagine we're on video, so imagine like this part's to sleep. And so then the blood flow is evenly coming up here. And so the N A D starts to turn this part of the brain on.

I was like, oh hi. It's the craziest thing that's ever happened to me. He sat there and then he just like, he goes, Hey, I'm back. And then he just started talking normal, like wow. It was the craziest thing. And I remember, and I had called, I called this friend of mine, Before I did it. And, and it was kind of like, I remember I was with you and Matt and, and we were talking, you know, cuz we, I we had done a session for you and then you go, I don't have a di And this is kind of also a little counter to like, let's say traditional psychiatry.

You were like, I don't have a problem. I'm o I'm okay. I don't have a diagnosis of, you know, and that's basically kind of my belief system about you. You're basically just fine. And you know, basically maybe if you had some dysfunctional patterns and stuff like that from behavior trauma and stuff like that.

And I think fundamentally, almost all of us do. And so then some, so in some cases it's a little bit more visible, but, um, And so this is kind of like this ongoing experiment that I'm super excited about. Um, and I'm, I'm, I'm just excited about it. Yeah. Well, for me, it keeps coming back to the idea that I have a lot to do with how well I am.

And what I mean by that is, well, when you and I and Matt, when we all first met, I was in a much different Headspace and the Headspace that I had been in for 30 years, which was that of, well, someone's gonna tell me what's wrong with me. Someone's gonna tell me what to do to fix it. Someone's going to do it all for me, right?

Mm-hmm. It's gonna come from the outside. Right. And that's, that's just, you know, I grew up with doctors in the house and, you know, just Western medicine or I, I don't know why that is. I just had this like belief that I hadn't challenged. And then when you and I started working together and, and then there's like a couple of things that would come up and, and, and you worked in a way that allowed me to think, oh no, okay, I am a huge player here in terms of if I'm gonna get better, but more importantly, the, my belief system, uh, if I believe I'm going to get better, if I believe I am better, if I believe, you know, and that you, we could have that conversation till we're blue in the face.

It's like going back to the brain. It matters what you think. Oh, I got a good, I've got a good one for you on this. And so then this one, this is an idea. I love this idea, and I, this one kind of, I hit upon me insecurity of the you're gonna be okay. And so then like, uh, and I, for, for me, if I was, was to say it like, like in the past I had a, a fair bit of pain, like physical pain.

And so then if I had pain, I would have this little creeping idea in the back of my mind that's like, oh no, I'm gonna be in pain. And it was like I had, I had like a little internal anxiety about, about it. And then particularly, what the hell is my career? Anesthesiology. My career was like, you know, unfortunately anesthesiologists are not good at like curing pain.

They just kind of numb it. Right? Um, now then what happened is, as I now have injected every joint in my body with stem cells, and so I generally don't have pain, but now if something happens to me, like when I'm exercising, I'll feel it and then I'll know exactly what it is. I'll be like, oh, I tore that muscle.

And then I'll go, okay, I know how to fix that, and it's probably gonna take like two or three weeks. Right? And so then all of a sudden there's no more insecurity around the fact of walking around for two weeks in pain. And not, and not knowing if you're ever gonna get out of pain. Almost anything that happens to me, I just think, oh, I'm probably gonna cure that in two weeks.

And so then what happened is I noticed this confirmational change this year so that whenever anything happens, it doesn't stress me out at all, even if I'm in pain. And so then the transition then is to imagine like if you're in psychological pain, but then you know, you realize, oh, I know how to fix this.

Like, you know, and, and I've actually been kind of running that in energy too lately, the last couple, last couple weeks of the covid where I'll, I'll be in some kind of like emotional frustration and then I'll real, I'll go, I'll probably fix this by tomorrow. And then that is kind of like suspending disbelief for like the seven days with ketamine or something.

And so then once you can just kind of wrap your head, if you can, if you can wrap your head around that and then project in and see a point in the future. We talked about that the other day a little bit. Then basically I think it's super effective. It is. I've been using that and that, that, that's, that was a very popular tidbit nl from our last chat was that notion right there of like imagining or manifesting whatever, um, whatever you wanna, whatever mechanism it is or you wanna call it.

Uh, it works for me. I'm practicing at least. It's really about your toolbox, right? So you have the tools that when you're talking about physical pain, you have all the tools in the world. Uh, And it's unfortunate that more people, when I'm talking about physical pain, because it's psychological too, right?

They're connected. Um, pain management seems to be a problem in America, at least. I know a lot of people are in pain. What we do is we give them opioids or something similar and then they just, they're just still numb, but not out of pain. Not out of pain. So then it's interesting Jackie, so then this is a good one.

And then imagine then, we'll, we'll do this one. This is a little two part thing. We'll do this for both of us. Okay. And so when, um, when I was, um, when I was in medical school, this person said to me, He goes, I, I'll, I'll tell you what to do. And he goes, this is gonna work for sure. So I was like, it was like a, it was like a person who pulled me aside at the end of a rotation cuz you wrote, and he goes, look, I'm gonna tell you what to do.

He goes, just follow this advice and you're gonna be fine. And then I go, oh, okay. So he goes, what you gotta do is he goes, he goes, everything is screwed up. He goes, you have to understand that the everything is screwed up and every, it's not good. So I was like, oh, this was a very wise person. And so then he goes, so what you gotta do is you just gotta walk around and do your job.

And he goes, you're gonna have to do it for a number of years. And he goes, you're gonna walk around the hospital. And he goes, the hospital's totally screwed up. And he goes, all the clinics are totally screwed up. And he goes, the model's wrong, but nobody knows it yet. Because they're in the box and they can't see anything other than the way that they're doing it.

And if you tell 'em to do it in a different way, he goes, they can't take it. But he goes and he goes, you're not gonna have enough tools in your toolbox. I'm kind of paraphrasing when in those first three or four years. So he goes, this could be super painful and frustrating cuz you're just running around and you're just kind of a pawn on the chessboard.

Okay. But then that's gonna go along. And he goes, at some point when you become like a rook or a bishop or something like that, you're, you're up a little bit and you're gonna begin to realize what's wrong with the whole thing. And he goes, at that point then you have to make your exit. And he goes, you have to make a change.

And so then he went through all of these examples of doctors that made sort of monumental. Changes in medicine because they were walking around seeing a surgery that didn't work. And so they said, let's do this. They came up with something else. And, and that is fundamentally like what I did in my career.

And interestingly, I basically woke up every day for like, about 17 years after that conversation and I said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna find out my idea today. And I never, I kind of found, I knew what, that it was screwed up, but I didn't have a, a thing to do. Right. And then all of a sudden it hit me, like, it hit me like a, like a, a tidal wave hit me.

And then I realized that like suddenly, and I think that in the same way, what's gonna happen is, is your toolbox is going to exponentially grow. In the, within, in the, in with, there's, there's psychedelics and then there's supplements. Okay. And then there's just like an attitude, you know what I mean? Like the, the, maybe the meat delegate.

I got that. I got that done already. But yeah. PhD attitude. But, so then what's gonna happen is that toolbox then, and, and, and interestingly, you know how we, we talked about, um, like there was other people who maybe had their own ideas about what psychedelics were or whatever. Sure. I remember I said, fuck those people.

Yeah. Because like what happens is you can't capitulate to a dominant paradigm if you're trying to change the world. True. And what I naively, um, came into, This particular project I'm in now, delic, uh, thinking or not thinking, was that it was somehow going to be easy to be at the beginning of something.

That it was that, that I, I somehow was not going to feel the resistance. It didn't even occur to me, um, actually until I started feeling the corners, the sharp edges of certain parts of the resistance. Um, and then I was like, oh, okay, well I didn't, I just didn't foresee this. But now that I'm here and the, the more of those edges that I get in this particular project and this business and this buddying psychedelic space, the more I realized that that's just a sign that like, yeah, I'm on the right track.

Um, exactly. Because that you don't, I would be, if I wasn't feeling the resistance, I wouldn't be on the right road. Dave, Dave Asprey. I love, I loved it. He told me he was, he said his happiest moment was when he got put on quack watch. Wait, what's quack Watch? Well, just like this, some guy has a thing that like to what?

That he, if, if you're saying things that, that aren't, uh, founded by randomized controlled clinical trial Sure. Then, then you can't say anything. And so I think, and so, um, which is total horse shit in my mind. Kinda, yeah. Well, in my mind it's like that's an impossible mindset because I'm not going to me personally and wildly curious, and while I'm not a scientist, I'm really interested in science, so, And I'm yet, I'm not going to go get my PhD.

I'm not gonna go to m mit. I didn't go to m mi t. So like to, to say that I as a citizen scientist don't have any data to share it, it seems, it just seems like dumb. It just seems like bad science. It seems like, and this is kind of an ongoing conversation you and I've started to have about, uh, physicians and scientists and like the academic type being more social and opening themselves up to, in a more mainstream way or maybe being a little bit more vulnerable.

Um, I've been thinking about that a lot since you and I brought up the other day because I think it's, yeah, because that's, that's like necessary to fix the system that's broken. Yeah. That, you know, that's a, I it's, it's like even, so like this conversation I've had like a lot of conversations with like groups of people.

Where all of a sudden they all started asking questions in front of each other, you know, and even very personal, but it's like once there's a social, there's a social validation. It's like in group therapy. And then like, there's this social aspect of like us talking about like, uh, as soon as we're talking about, like, let's say you were, you were down at some point in the past, but as soon as you're talking about it, it kind of normalizes it.

It's almost like Howard Stern. It's like, okay, he's anxious. Right? But I have to think that the fact that he's able to talk about it makes him less anxious. A hundred percent. It's, uh, again, an earlier conversation today, the with, uh, a gentleman named Dell, uh, Porter, who's, uh, many things but, uh, an anthropologist, medical anthropologist, and he's studied shamanic traditions.

Compared to sort of western medicine for many, many years. And he talked about, uh, the tradition of consuming psychedelic substances as a group in ceremony in indigenous cultures outside of, um, I don't know, north America or whatever, which is, you know, there are people that consume psychedelic substances as a group collectively in America, but not, I don't know that it's in the same vein as the, the shamanic ceremonial traditions, but the way he described it was that it's not, it's not necessar.

It's an individual experience, but the integration requires the rest of your community. And yeah, that's a good one. Like you, basically, the way I received it was, well, you can't really heal without your community. Um, And I've had, and that your community is responsible for your integration in the same way you're responsible for your integration, which I think is so beautiful.

And I've personally had a few instances where I've tried, like I've sought that out and failed a little bit, but mostly because the people in the room, uh, in hindsight, this is what I think didn't have the tools to share. Mm-hmm. Right. Everybody that's, I think everyone wants that. But, and, and some cultures we're just like, you know, stiff upper lip.

Like we're, we don't really, we don't know how to open up and integrate, um, collectively whether you're taking psychedelics or whether you're talking about politics or, or solving a math problem. So, so I'm gonna go back to the beginning of the conversation cause uh, you know how. You said, oh, in the past I would try to avoid eye contact and then, you know, it's, it's a trip because lately, you know, uh, emotional connection is kind of a popular concept these days, right?

These people be like, Hey, do you want to connect? Right? And it's kinda like, it's like a, it's interesting, but in, in those sort of ceremony settings that people do, I think what happens is, is that there, there's an opportunity to, to completely look and see and receive someone like in the who they are. And interestingly, I think it's probably extremely therapeutic to be, to either see someone and also be seen because then you realize basically on the other side of that, you know, honor roller hat.

It's just consciousness, you know? We're just, we're just basically beings of light. And so then the then, and that's like the most important thing. And then the most important thing in life is to have some moments like that. And a lot of times you don't have a lot of 'em. Psychedelics make that a little bit easier if, if, if it's done right.

But that's a, that's a, that may be the biggest if of all time. Um, yeah. But, but then, but then seeing once you connect and, and are accepted, it's like amazing. Right? Yes. It's akin to that feeling that you can get sometimes in ketamine therapy, where you're like, you're just okay. And that, you know, not to diminish.

The state of being. Okay, but no, to champion the idea of just being okay. Right? Because when you're, you know, to be seen from your community means that you're like, you're good, you're good. Yeah, you're okay. And that, which is my friend, which is my thesis, Jackie, that you're okay. There's no diagnosis.

Remember now. Then here's my idea though. Then this is the next idea, which is then basically as soon as you can wrap your head around that, then you can just be in that state. Like you could just kind of see someone and be like, oh, hey, how are you? And then be, and you could go into, it's almost like you can channel the same connected kind of shamanic, um, uh, ceremony like, uh, spirit state at, at, at any, at any time.

Right. That's the ideal. That's, that's where you wanna get to. Yeah. It's interesting, like I am able to do it for sure, for like five or six hours a day. Yeah. And so then it's, and that's just practice. How long did it take you to get there? Well, I think that if I could talk to me like when I was like, you know, 32, I think I could have, I could have, I could have gotten myself there in like a year.

Mm-hmm. But like I was, I just like, at that time I just was managing risk and at a status of crazy stress every minute of the day. It's kinda interesting. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The shift in stress in that I've felt so far in quarantine from the like, It's the previous, the world is operating around me and I have to like, pay attention to everything that's happening and like catch a few things that are happening and it's like I feel like I'm behind and I need to catch up.

And so, you know, and that stress or not relating to the things or like picking something that you didn't want or dropping it or whatever, you know, is, is a different kind of stress like that. Now it's of course an existential stress of like, oh shit, like am I gonna die or sooner than I would like or are worse is my, are my loved ones gonna die?

Um, but that external stress for me is gone unless I like open Instagram or the news, but it's um, it's calmer in a way. More settled. Yeah, I know cuz you're not, you're not out there. So it's more virtual. And, you know, I had to, I, I had to connect, like if the finances is kind of interesting too. Oh man. Yeah.

With, with this whole thing because, um, basically all of a sudden, like, you know, it's interesting, I watched a really good thing, basically the, the driver of our economy, obviously there's big tech and stuff like that, that's gonna be fine, like Apple computer. But, um, the restaurants and the hotels and the, the doctor's offices, all of a sudden, like all that revenue just disappeared.

And so then it's kind of like, back to your manifesting idea. I just said, I'm gonna totally do something different and it's gonna work. And then I kind of basically just said, it's gonna work. Yeah. And uh, and then basically I'm just doing stuff all day. But I'm not gonna, I haven't stressed about it, like I've just said, oh, this is, I'm, I, I'm just expecting that it's gonna work.

Right? Because your driving force is rooted in just your belief and you're being disciplined about reminding yourself about that belief. That's like, that's the force. And then you anchor in that, and then you do stuff. Yeah, you just do stuff, but you're riding a wave. You're riding a wave. That's like a wave of, I'm going to ride this wave.

And, and you might get pummeled by the way, but you know, it's gonna, it, it's that, that is a driving, it is a driving force to, to me, and then I say this to people because if you can kind of get to a driving force mentality, that is amazing because then, then it's like, As you kind of look at the finances, and that is if you, if your driving force is strong enough, obviously there's some work that's involved, but then, uh, committing to an idea and then just doing it, that does take to some extent, it's like an interesting manifestation thing.

Yeah. Well, and that's, you have to be flexible too, right? So to me it's being flexible and then diligently driving your life force. Um, and flexibility is so key. If I, if I could give anyone advice in a business sense, um, which is the world I live in, it, it would be to pivot and right. So we're all being forced to pivot now, which when you're forced to do anything, hurts a little more.

Um, but success comes when you're able to, You know, you throw a five minute fit and then you get, you get back on the train and you, you move with it. And then, oh shit, I got knocked off the road again. Okay. I'm coming back on the fucking highway. You just, it literally is like determination. You have to keep doing it, and you have to be able, you have to open yourself up to change.

I love change. I embrace the hell outta change. I don't know that, I don't know how, how many people feel that way, but, um, I find a real, like fluid safe feeling in just embracing change and, and getting excited about it, and that's not, yeah. I love change, Jackie, because if in my normal world I would be like completely trying to work as hard as I possibly could for like the next four hours or three hours, and I am sitting in a room talking to you on the phone, this is like the greatest thing that ever happened to me.

Work, work, work smarter, not harder is as Ari Mazel would say. Um, but to that, I think back to the community conversation, if you are an able body person, whatever talent level, whatever skill set you have, if you're able body meaning your mind works pretty well and you have arms and you have legs and you can breathe and you don't have any like me, actual medical problems, uh, it's your duty to figure out how to be, how to go with the flow, how to click into the universe.

And go with it while also being your own driving force. Because there are like a lot of situations where people aren't able-bodied, they don't have all their limbs, they don't, their mind isn't working, et cetera, et cetera. And like that, you know, they need you to help solve their problems. Mm-hmm. And it a communal way.

Yeah. I like that. I'm thinking about the, what you said about, remember that story I told you about James Taylor? Which one? The one about how when he was a heroin addict, he told that story about when he met Palm McCartney. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, you know, in a way. That is kind of like what you said about being seen and then like, like that connection because he, he told this story in a concert cuz he was like, at the, he was strung out, everything was not working.

And then somebody heard a demo that he did and then he went over to Abbey Road and then he, he walked in and he, when he walked in, John Lennon and Paul McCartney were recording, Hey Jude. And so then, and he told this story. It's like, that was like the best musical moment of like the last 500 years probably.

Yeah. Right. If you could walk in on any moment, right? I I would, I would probably pick that one. Yeah. You know, I mean, I'd be, if you, if you gave me a hundred, I'd probably pick that one. Plus it's James Taylor walking in and, and if, and if you could. And so he said he walked in and. They had holes in their shoes, in their jeans cuz they couldn't afford jeans.

And interestingly, you know, that song going to Carolina in mind, George Harrison and Paul McCartney were uncredited like they played on, that's what he recorded. Right. Uh, I'm gonna Carolina. Oh, so good. I think most people would be surprised to realize that James Taylor had a problem with heroin at one point.

Isn't that crazy? But so then, you know, and it's, and so that's the line was like with the holy host of others standing around me still, I'm on the dark side of the moon, you know, and it seems like it goes on like this forever. You must forgive me if I'm up and going to Carolina in my mind. Ah, so, so then he, and I don't, I don't know if I told you this.

So basically what happened is he walked in and Paul McCartney looked at him and saw him and was like, and he was there and they, they recorded him. And so basically they validated him and he said, he said that his whole life was a wall that was full of doors and every door had been locked his whole life.

And then he said when, when Paul McCartney accepted him as like one person accepted him and all the doors opened, and he goes, they've all been open every day since then. And now I liken that door is like looking into each other's eyes. That's like consciousness. And so he just, all he needed to be was super accepted one time and then he was good the rest of his life.

Right, right. And, and so then I, you know, I told Barb basically, and I told everybody that would listen every day for like, 10 years. I'm looking for my Paul McCartney, cuz I heard that story and I never found them. But then all of a sudden I found like four or five mini Paul McCartneys at the same time.

And so then that's kind of how I liken to what you were talking about when you in the journey experience, because all of a sudden, and then the best is if you can have that attitude towards yourself. That's the hard part. Yeah. Right. But, but, and the way that you get, the way that my, here's my, I'm going to, I'll give you my, my technique so then you'll know my technique is basically I'm like, you don't actually have any problems, Jackie.

You're fine. You just didn't have enough N a d and you needed seven days of feeling okay to reboot. And we're gonna do that a couple times, right? And so then all of a sudden, I am accepting you, Matt's accepting you, you have your word. Unfortunately I'm not Paul McCartney, but, but all of a sudden you, you know, your next thing you know, you have, uh, you, you have acceptance from the tribe.

Mm-hmm. So that to me was like the ultimate example of acceptance from the tribe. Yeah. And then it's over because then basically he's like, oh, okay, I'm good. And then basically he literally, and then he just proceeded to absolutely crush it for like, the rest of that decade. Yeah. You know, all of those songs.

It just occurred to me that, so it's, it's always been difficult for me to do the whole self-love thing openly. Because of many reasons, but one particular one is that I like real hell bent on not being an asshole. And what I mean is like, somehow in my head, I, I, uh, was that a beep? Yeah. You, you, my, my connection went away.

It was hard for you to do self-love because somewhere in my head, I, I, uh, connected self-love with like arrogance or self-love with that kind of Yes, boisterous, like, like Hollywood, uh, douche bag thing. And I said, you know what? I'd rather be depressed than be that guy. I'm not gonna be that guy. But then it just occurred to me as you were describing the JT story, jts for James Taylor and our experience, uh, having feeling validated by you, a friend by.

A couple of other people who I respect. It's a, it was important to me to get validation from people I respected. Um, and when you get that, there's a, you go back to that feeling of okay. Again, and you know, longer are really seeking that, that validation in a way that makes you a douche bag. Right? Right.

Those people drive me crazy and well, they're just not validated, it sounds like. Right. They need valid, they need like real authentic validation from their tribe. Right. And so then this, so then, uh, I don't know if this is the best answer for it, but I, I was exactly the same as that Jackie. What I did is I would say I'd rather be depressed.

Then feel good about myself and be like inauthentic or something like that. And so then guess what I did? I just stayed depressed. Exactly. So a lot of times if you tell yourself kind of the stupid, if you tell your, if you come up with a rule that you're gonna apply to yourself that's very, really dysfunctional, and then you say, this is my rule, then you might just have that, you could, a lot of people might come up with a rule and maybe they said it and somebody validated them for saying that, but then next thing you know, they're depressed for 10 years.

Yeah. And so then what is, this is, so then follow this. This one is gonna be, uh, this has been my, this is my current idea that I'm working on right now. Okay. So then

I just have a.

I just have like a generally really good feeling that what I'm doing the best I possibly can. Like in any situation, I'm just, I'm trying as hard as I possibly can. And so then I, I, I don't think I feel like ecstatic, but I feel almost ecstatic about myself because I'm like, now I was in, I felt so ethically challenged working in anesthesia that I felt generally bad about myself.

And so then a, a part of it is you have to get yourself oriented, kind of like work life politically in a way, but then. And that's why I've been so promoting and exciting of you doing what you're doing right now because it becomes a vehicle. And so then like the vehicle is, the vehicle is heals you. Meat Delic is gonna heal you.

But, but you don't need healing cuz you're fine. Right? And, and then what I'm, I'm, and so then I'm not running like ego and it's kind of interesting. And the reason I say I'm not running ego, cuz I had this great conversation with a scientist, right? Um, this PhD the other day, Dr. Messier, she's very smart.

And so we were talking and I was like, I feel like I kind of know like 20%. But if I'm honest, I feel like I know a lot less than that. Mm. Because, and I had, I, I actually said this to you. I, I, at the very, very beginning of when I met you, I said, I have no fucking idea. And I remember it was somewhat triggering to To you.

Yeah. Yeah. Though I had so much hope that you would know that I would know. Yeah. And, and I did know, but I was kind of, but guess what, at that, that's actually a good one that actually triggered both you and Matt. Cuz I was like, what the, what the fuck? You don't, how did you not know? And I was like, wow, your doctor, you're supposed to know.

I, I think I do know more than anyone else, but I kind of feel like I have no idea. And in the sense that like, because what I'm trying to do is the totality of all of medicine. So I'm trying to do pain and psychology and all of internal medicine and all of neurology and energy medicine and, well, I would hope that most doctors would, um, think that way.

I think there's a, a, a growing number of you, but it seems like just specializing in one thing makes no sense to me.

Uh, we lost, I lost you for a second. It's fine. So this is what I was telling with Helen. Almost every day we walk into the clinic and we don't know exactly what's going on cuz it's so overwhelmingly complex. But then we just figure it out. And so as soon as, I don't know, I just call somebody and so then I, I'm living in the certainty that there's a solution, but that I don't really know what it is.

But then as that evolves, you, there's more and more that you do know. Like there's a lot of stuff that I just know cold. Yeah. But you use the community of, of fellow physicians to help, which makes a lot of sense. Right. And so then my attitude is super humble and that was like the most important attitude if you were from Western Montana.

It's like, if you were not humble, I was like, get outta here. Right. And so then that was why I ran that attitude just like you did the attitude, which was, I'd rather be depressed than love myself. Okay. But now what I'm running is I'm just running this attitude, which is kinda interesting, is kinda like, well, I'm doing by far the very best I possibly can with limited, um, with limited knowledge, with limited skills.

But it just, and, and then I'm just almost like going at with the grace of God and then, and then magically, it basically almost always comes together. And so then that's in a wonderful place to be. And so then you're not really in your ego, but you're just kind of like chugging along and like in a state of wonderment.

And the state of wonderment then allows you, it's not so much. So what I would say is I'm not in a state of really self-love, although maybe I'm gonna get there, but I'm in a state of total wonderment that I'm able to live and like do stuff. Yeah. And gratitude. It's, and gr and super gratitude. God, honestly, I can't even believe it because, you know, like, and it's the perfect skillset for this because like, I can't even imagine, it's like it couldn't have been greater thing to do was to learn regenerative medicine and functional medicine.

And then I think the whole world's gonna kind of wake up. And like I was talking, I had a call today with my compounding pharmacy guys be because lysine blocks the viral replication. Mm-hmm. And. Then also vitamin C is, is helpful, especially intravenously because you can give a lot of it and it also may help treat sepsis and it does all these things.

And so, uh, I was like, God, we gotta, we gotta get hospitals doing this because we could, we, we could prevent people from getting on a ventilator. Well, and that's, those two things are relatively inexpensive, right? Yeah. It's like pennies, vitamin, vitamin C and L, vitamins, pennies. They just compound it, you know what I mean?

And so, uh, they would do it, their company is called Archway and like they would, if they would just do it for free, you know, and so imagine I've got these guys, Archway, apothecary, okay? So they would just make vitamin C for hospital if they would do it to, to do a trial for free. And the cost is like, it cost, it costs the iv, the hospital like about $4 an IV tubing and stuff like that.

And so the. And then maybe the hospitals are gonna wake up now, or maybe they're gonna wait until the next one. But I'm just telling you, they're gonna wake up and then we're just gonna like, knock on the door. We gotta like, we just need voices to, to just keep, keep up this message because I feel like it's a almost like it's gonna be a moment that's gonna define our age.

And, and once we start to treat some people and get some data on the combination of integrative things, the solution to this is primarily, I think, gonna be drug-based. But I think the, the supplements and vitamins may lower the rate of sepsis. This is my, this is my hypothesis and we just have to get that conversation started.

Got it. Well, I'm happy to, um, I'm happy to do my part. It's certainly.

We definitely live in interesting times. And, uh, while, while everything seems to be breaking around us, um, the light is shining through the cracks while it's break. Oh, wasn't that a good one? It was. Tell him, tell him how I told you that. That was a good one. Uh, no. You tell him. I don't remember. You tell him.

Cause I, I don't remember. You had a whole conversation about like, you were broken. And so then I did this whole visualization about how there was light inside, inside you. And the light that shown through the cracks was more beautiful than because it was artistic. It was kind of like an aesthetic.

Totally. Visual visualization is, uh, is super key to the toolbox. And then just little bits. Little bits. I just gather little bits. People like you and other smart people, I'm so, uh, uh, grateful to have in my life. Just, they'll say something or I'll pick something up on a podcast and I'll just put that in my coat, you know?

Mm-hmm. And just walk around with it, pull it out when I need it. Like the idea that, uh, it's a very simple idea, but that there is no light without sh there's no, uh, light without shadows. There's no shadows without light. Pretty basic, uh, you know, grade, I don't know, three science class concept, but we're, you know, we're so busy we forget.

And um, yeah. You know, as soon as you can call that out too. That's a good one, because I've been noticing it's like, oh, it's like, oh, they're, those guys are kind of shady. Right. You know, but it doesn't, it doesn't, like in the past, that would've just been totally triggered me. You know what I mean? Yeah. But it's like, oh, they're just kinda shady.

That that's just like, and so we had this conversation before on the Savannah, there's kind of, there's like hyenas over there. Yeah. Like, don't, don't, just don't go over there because they're really dangerous. So the key is to, and we should talk about this next time, the boundaries thing. I think the key is to not get stuck in, in the barbs, or to not get stuck in the, um, yeah, in the, the pool of hyenas or the, the group of hyenas.

Like, don't go over there. Just keep on keeping on. So a lot of people in the world, we serve a lot of different functions. We're similar, we're same, but different. It's reasonable to assume that we're not all going, like, not all of our vibrations are gonna match. I think people get stuck in like, you know, you come across the vibration that's like, ugh.

It's like jany. It doesn't, doesn't flow with your flow, man. It's a different genre of music and you just want, you get stuck and you wanna conceptualize it and you wanna understand. You're like, why? But I don't understand why. And that's where like the, the, the damage to your own psyche happens. So you just get in this fucking loop.

But really just like, you could just accept it and then just, you know, just go like that. Yeah. You know, you know the, you know how, remember when you were young, like if you met somebody, or especially like at school, it was like you had to be friends. If like your parents were friends, then you just had to be friends.

Right. I, I know what you mean, but I would, I I didn't have, I was quite the loner. I had imaginary friends cuz I think I didn't, I didn't probably like a lot of the people I came into contact with, but yeah. Okay, good. So then that works even better for my story. So thank you. So then what happened is, because you didn't have like a great framework for that, then all of a sudden you busted out of that into a life and then all of a sudden you meet people and they're expecting you to kind of like run with whatever vibration they're running with and you're like, oh, that's not my vibration.

But then there's not a good way to say that. And so then that's like, okay, I'm gonna not look at people's eyes. Right, right, right. And so, but, so then well go ahead. Tell me what you think about that. I'm just thinking about those two Muppets and the, uh, a part of the Muppet crew, the two old men in the, in the balconies that they're just like, we don't, like most things.

They're just like, these, these two critics just have the most critical and real and logical things to say, but they're just like, grumpy. And I get, I feel like that sometimes I, I just, you know, my vibration doesn't always match up with people a lot. Um, so yeah, so I was avoiding, avoiding eye contact, so I didn't have to address that difference.

Hmm. Right. Okay. So then now, but, uh, tell me just in, tell me when you're done internalizing that, cuz I, I take your time. Well, another thing that came up was that, Uh, I perhaps didn't have the tools to address it. So my, right. Yeah. My survival mechanism was like, it was pretty simple. It was like, okay, I'm just not gonna look at it.

Right. But so then as soon as you're, as soon as kind of you're aware, you can kind of diagnose that, then you're like, oh, hey, I don't wanna do that. Right. Oh, that sounds like really good. But I'm just, I just like, um, and so then all of a sudden, now, as soon as you can do that, now you're navigating your own chip.

Yep. Which is amazing because then your ship can, your, your, you, you can kinda like max in where the wild things are Now your ship can, you can just take your ship and go wherever you want and do whatever you want with Matt and have this saying and have, and, and then what's um, amazing about that is, is that then now you're free.

Yeah. Except when Matt staying wants to also direct my ship and where we're going. Wait, we could be side by side. We could be ships side by side on similar paths. Yeah. You know what I would say? I would say that, um, I would say that Matt's staying. If I was gonna have a cruise director, then he's a pretty good cruise director.

So you, you know what, to be fair, you're totally right. You're totally right. He has been with this c i thing. Man, he's been like two weeks, probably on average, two weeks ahead of everyone, of everyone else in the world. Someone's gotta talk to this guy. He just sees it and calls it. Oh, reconnecting. There you are.

Yeah, I'm reconnected. Anyway, that why is he two weeks ahead? He just like, that's, yeah, that's how he is. It's a Jewish brain. It's, he's like, he's got a wicked fucking super smart, connect the dots, see all the chest moves, like weigh them, do it again. Do it a different way. Do it another way. You know, it's just, it, it's just, um, it's just that like the way his brain works.

Okay. I got a good one for you then. So that's a good one. So then, That actually is how he kind of runs his energy now. Then what's amazing about that is, is that's a great energy to run because then you're running that energy and it's like very productive. Mm-hmm. Now I'm running more of a wonderment kind of like, I don't know what I'm running, but it's, I do love it.

Right. You're running like the Irish, like, like, like storytellers slash like you use the muscle. Yeah. So whatever I'm running, right, I guess. And so whatever it is, and then now guess what? And then you're doing whatever you're doing Right, right now. Then get, now all of a sudden now you could just, like, you could pick an idea up on, on a podcast.

You could take a little Matt staying and then use that on your boat. I gotta tell you, he has taught, I have like, uh, PhD in business. I'm a doctor in business thanks to Matt St. Dang. Nice. Dr. St. Dang, business associates. It's so true. It's beautiful. So then here's my prayer and then we have to just give, we have to each give a musical quote.

Let's do it. So, so here's my, my prayer is, is that this is kind of like a great, I I love this conversation and so then Ima, my prayer is that the something that we said is kind of interesting and hopeful and helpful, and that you can take it and add it to your toolbox and then you can begin to connect to other people, begin to connect to yourself and connect that feeling, and then connect to that feeling in the future.

And then know almost everything. Basically all biology can be reset and then we're all gonna do it together. We're gonna be better than we ever were.

Let's do it. I love it. Okay. Okay. What's your, what, what's your what? Music, what, what do you have for me? Wait, I have a fun fact before that you mentioned me, delic earlier. Oh yeah. Me Go to me The first time for psychedelic wellness of it. Uh, no. So fun fact about the branding behind me and the logo itself is music inspired, um, by a Talking Heads cover album and a James Taylor cover album that I saw on, uh, in my Tesla.

And then I just combined those two. So the color and the style are inspired by music because man, life is inspired by music and uh, I love it. So

I thought. We should bring back a Janna Jackson vibe. You like Janet Jackson, doc? Gotta love Janna Jackson. I can love J Listen. First album ever. Michael Jackson. Bad. Uh, Easter, right? I guess around this time I'm like five. I wake up and I've got a Michael Jackson bad album, which of course led to my love for Madonna.

Love for Janet Jackson. And I just, uh, whatever you wanna say about Michael Jackson. He's been preaching he and his family, um, and that that tribe have been preaching a lot of really positive things for a really long time. So my song is State of the World by Janet Jackson, which is not necessarily an a side track, but those who know, know, and I'll just read the chorus for you cuz it's super, super.

It's, uh, early nineties State of the world, Janet Jackson. Uh, drugs and crime spreading on the streets. People can't find enough to eat now. Our kids can't go out and play. That's the state of the world today. Now our kids can't go out and play. Uh uh. That's the state of the world today. Uh, oh. Yeah. Shout out to Jet or Jackson.

That's amazing. All right, that's mine. What's yours? Okay, so I wanna do, um, I'll be there and I, and you know what's interesting is cuz I was like, I was like, well I thought of quoting Michael Jackson the other day cuz I was listening to Avi there and I thought, oh, I can't say that anymore. You know, and then, but that, you know, that.

If I would, if you said, what is America? America is like Motown. Yeah. Y you know, and, and, and in a way it is kind of like that James Taylor moment. It's kinda like Motown was like, we're gonna take care of you. And it is also like, also like, so socially disadvantaged people, you know what I mean? And yet they were all there.

It was like this, to me, it is like the greatest moment in America is like Motown. Yeah. It's like the, um, did you ever see that movie Standing in the shadows of Motown? No. Okay. So this is, that's like a, a guaranteed quote. Uh uh, a gua I'm gonna give you a money back guarantee if you watch that. Okay. Do you hear that folks?

Uh, money back guarantee. What was the, what was the name of the movie again? Standing in the Shadow of Motown. Copy. Uh, so it says, you and I must make a pact. We must bring salvation back. Where there is love, I'll be there. So just know and, and, and you know, it's just the funnest thing in the world that I've ever done as like coming on and talking to you and, and, and people and kind of doing this and we're gonna be here and, uh, because we don't know how to sing like Michael Jackson, although you do, I don't know about that and so and so, but we're gonna be here and, and it's gonna be amazing.

It's gonna be amazing. Dot, love you. Thanks. Love you.

In part 3 of Dr Cook and Jackee Stang's (Delic Radio) fireside chat, they address the impact the Corona Virus pandemic is having (and will continue to have) on mental health. They equate the virus to its own depressive journey with a multitude of ups and downs and project how important it's going to be  to gather multiple opinions on the subject, mixed with scientific data, to find new ways to treat patients. Otherwise it just becomes another data point, with no context. Its that explorative and open approach to medicine that is going to speed up science and mental health treatment as a result of this. Dr. Cook goes on muse that 100's of trials will be rushed through as a matter of pandemic urgency, meaning quasi legal treatments for depression like 'ketamine' become more mainstream. He goes on to say that there are early mentions of how it's now legal to treat patients with ketamine via telemedicine. It's possible to ship ketamine, have the patient take an oral dissolve and complete their ketamine treatment journey all via Zoom. As the fireside chat evolves, Dr. Cook and Jackee go on to discuss other mental health treatments that are not only therapeutic but help reset a patients physical pain and anxiety. "Even if these progressive treatments give me just a day, a week, maybe 2 weeks of hope then it’s worth it for me." - Jackee Stang

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